On the day of his unveiling as an RTÉ pundit, The Score sat down with English World Cup-winning second row Ben Kay for a chat about Martin Johnson’s England side, Ireland’s World Cup prospects and Danny Cipriani’s tabloid ambition.
AS ONE OF only four players to have started in both the 2003 and 2007 World Cup finals– a record that places him in the illustrious company of Johnny Wilkinson, Phil Vickery and Jason Robinson– Ben Kay has experienced first-hand the pressures and anxieties that decide the fate of international tournaments.
Over the course of his nearly decade-long England career, Kay won 62 caps for his country, another two for the Lions and gained a reputation as one of international rugby’s most formidable line-out jumpers, a skill founded as much on the lock’s legendary shrewdness (he famously learned to count to ten in Afrikaans as means of deciphering the Springboks’ line-out calls) as his physicality.
In the search for World Cup wisdom, then, there are few better places to start.
We cornered the man set to become RTÉ’s most imposing pundit at the official launch of the broadcaster’s tournament coverage.
How well-prepared are England heading into the World Cup?
They’ll be disappointed with their performances in the first two warm-up games, but it’s that time of the year where Johnno hasn’t picked the final 30 [this interview took place before the announcement of the final World Cup squad], so no one actually wants to make a mistake. They’re going out not to play to win, but not to make mistakes, which is no good.
You don’t think their recent performances hint at a Six Nations hangover, then?
People were talking them up and it was all a bit easy, but the match in Dublin showed them that it’s hard to win things. I suspect they’ll be better players for it, but they’re still a year or two away from where they need to be if they’re to be a real force in terms of trying to get to number one in the world.
There’s been a resurgence in the old debate about starting Wilkinson at fly-half.
I’d probably go for Toby Flood still, and back him– not put too much pressure on him by, you know, if he’s starting to have a bad game, suddenly throwing Johnny on.
Johnny’s world class and I’d have no problem with him starting, but having the likes of Johnny Wilkinson on the bench has a massive effect on your own team and the opposition. “They’ve got rid of Toby Flood– oh, no– Johnny Wilkinson’s coming on…”
It might well be that Johnny starts; I think that’s the safer option at the moment, but I don’t necessarily think it’s the right one.
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[caption id="attachment_216845" align="alignnone" width="618" caption="Kay outjumps South Africa's Victor Matfield during the 2007 World Cup final."][/caption]
How does a team cope with the pressure of a World Cup? What makes it different from the Six Nations, say?
The important thing is how you manage that pressure and don’t get carried away with anything. You just try to keep yourselves away from some of the excitements and things, but it’s all belief.
The Tri-Nations breeds better rugby teams, but the Six Nations is better preparation for the World Cup. There’s much more pressure in the Six Nations.
If you’re going for a Grand Slam, you have to win every week. In the Tri-Nations, you can lose a game, and that means you play more open rugby, alright, but if get into an arm-wrestle in a World Cup, then suddenly, you’re not playing the same style of rugby that you were even a couple of weeks before.
Are England the strongest European side?
Not necessarily.
As I’ve said before, I think the most important game of the World Cup is Ireland-Australia. If Ireland can beat Australia in the pool… well, if I was Martin Johnson, I would be a lot more concerned about meeting Ireland in the semi-finals than Australia.
Well, look at England’s last three games against Australia. They lost one narrowly, probably should’ve won it in the end, then beat them home and away. They know they can play a style of rugby that can upset Australia.
The last few times they’ve played Ireland, however, they haven’t been able to cope with them. Ireland play a style of rugby that can frustrate England. At the Aviva this year, they held every tackle up and turned England over repeatedly. The times they didn’t turn them over, it was massively slow ball, and Flood and Youngs can’t play with slow ball at the moment.
You’re teammate Johnno came in for a lot of criticism when he took the reins of the national squad, but most of that seems to have blown over now.
Look, anyone who knew rugby or knew Johnno at that time was laughing when that was happening. Clive Woodward took over an England side that had Dallaglio, Hill, Johnson, Vickery: seasoned players in all the positions. He took over the basis of a World Cup-winning squad.
Johnno took over at England’s lowest point. The worst thing that happened to England was coming second in the Six Nations with a pub team in 2007, because suddenly everyone thought “Actually, we’re still really good.”
We were rubbish, absolutely rubbish!
He took over at a bad time, so of course it’s going to take some time to turn things around. He’s brought some new guys in; they’re going to take some time to bed in.
And one of the biggest problems he had was with young kids coming in, 20-years-old, going “Oh, look: There’s Martin Johnson!”
Johnno was going around asking: “How are you doing? Is everything we’re doing alright?”
And all he was hearing back was: “Yes, Mr. Johnson, sir.”
They didn’t want to stand up.
Coaches don’t know what’s happening in the changing room. They don’t know how players feel about the way they’re playing. You need to have that two-way communication, and I think he’s got that now.
Unless the players believe in what they’re doing, unless they feel ownership of the gameplan, they won’t do it for you.
British teams seem to have a strange realtionship with the national press.
Our press have a lot to answer for.
Was Danny Cipriani a victim of media hysteria?
He was kicked out of the England squad for being a disruptive influence, and I agree with it. You’re much better having a slightly less talented guy that everyone will work their socks off to play for.
I think Danny Cipriani was one of the first players to get a showbiz agent and say: “Make me famous.”
You go to the type of agent he’s with and ask that, they’ll do it for you. And not necessarily for the right reasons.
Do press expectations tend to get too high ahead of big games?
No, no, no! I don’t think it’s that; I think it’s more the other way around, actually. You probably saw England, on the back of four good performances, coming to Ireland with expectations, but there was still, pre- that game, an undercurrent of “… but if England don’t do it, it’ll prove they’re not really contenders.”
I actually think at the moment, with the state of English rugby, it’s more a case of English rugby being seen to be bad, then when they win a game: *crowd cheering noise* “HEROES!”
You never have an English team slightly improving. They’re either bloody brilliant, or awful.
The World Cup according to Ben Kay
AS ONE OF only four players to have started in both the 2003 and 2007 World Cup finals– a record that places him in the illustrious company of Johnny Wilkinson, Phil Vickery and Jason Robinson– Ben Kay has experienced first-hand the pressures and anxieties that decide the fate of international tournaments.
Over the course of his nearly decade-long England career, Kay won 62 caps for his country, another two for the Lions and gained a reputation as one of international rugby’s most formidable line-out jumpers, a skill founded as much on the lock’s legendary shrewdness (he famously learned to count to ten in Afrikaans as means of deciphering the Springboks’ line-out calls) as his physicality.
In the search for World Cup wisdom, then, there are few better places to start.
We cornered the man set to become RTÉ’s most imposing pundit at the official launch of the broadcaster’s tournament coverage.
How well-prepared are England heading into the World Cup?
They’ll be disappointed with their performances in the first two warm-up games, but it’s that time of the year where Johnno hasn’t picked the final 30 [this interview took place before the announcement of the final World Cup squad], so no one actually wants to make a mistake. They’re going out not to play to win, but not to make mistakes, which is no good.
You don’t think their recent performances hint at a Six Nations hangover, then?
People were talking them up and it was all a bit easy, but the match in Dublin showed them that it’s hard to win things. I suspect they’ll be better players for it, but they’re still a year or two away from where they need to be if they’re to be a real force in terms of trying to get to number one in the world.
There’s been a resurgence in the old debate about starting Wilkinson at fly-half.
I’d probably go for Toby Flood still, and back him– not put too much pressure on him by, you know, if he’s starting to have a bad game, suddenly throwing Johnny on.
Johnny’s world class and I’d have no problem with him starting, but having the likes of Johnny Wilkinson on the bench has a massive effect on your own team and the opposition. “They’ve got rid of Toby Flood– oh, no– Johnny Wilkinson’s coming on…”
It might well be that Johnny starts; I think that’s the safer option at the moment, but I don’t necessarily think it’s the right one.
[caption id="attachment_216845" align="alignnone" width="618" caption="Kay outjumps South Africa's Victor Matfield during the 2007 World Cup final."]
[/caption]
How does a team cope with the pressure of a World Cup? What makes it different from the Six Nations, say?
The important thing is how you manage that pressure and don’t get carried away with anything. You just try to keep yourselves away from some of the excitements and things, but it’s all belief.
The Tri-Nations breeds better rugby teams, but the Six Nations is better preparation for the World Cup. There’s much more pressure in the Six Nations.
If you’re going for a Grand Slam, you have to win every week. In the Tri-Nations, you can lose a game, and that means you play more open rugby, alright, but if get into an arm-wrestle in a World Cup, then suddenly, you’re not playing the same style of rugby that you were even a couple of weeks before.
Are England the strongest European side?
Not necessarily.
Well, look at England’s last three games against Australia. They lost one narrowly, probably should’ve won it in the end, then beat them home and away. They know they can play a style of rugby that can upset Australia.
The last few times they’ve played Ireland, however, they haven’t been able to cope with them. Ireland play a style of rugby that can frustrate England. At the Aviva this year, they held every tackle up and turned England over repeatedly. The times they didn’t turn them over, it was massively slow ball, and Flood and Youngs can’t play with slow ball at the moment.
You’re teammate Johnno came in for a lot of criticism when he took the reins of the national squad, but most of that seems to have blown over now.
Look, anyone who knew rugby or knew Johnno at that time was laughing when that was happening. Clive Woodward took over an England side that had Dallaglio, Hill, Johnson, Vickery: seasoned players in all the positions. He took over the basis of a World Cup-winning squad.
Johnno took over at England’s lowest point. The worst thing that happened to England was coming second in the Six Nations with a pub team in 2007, because suddenly everyone thought “Actually, we’re still really good.”
He took over at a bad time, so of course it’s going to take some time to turn things around. He’s brought some new guys in; they’re going to take some time to bed in.
And one of the biggest problems he had was with young kids coming in, 20-years-old, going “Oh, look: There’s Martin Johnson!”
Johnno was going around asking: “How are you doing? Is everything we’re doing alright?”
And all he was hearing back was: “Yes, Mr. Johnson, sir.”
They didn’t want to stand up.
Coaches don’t know what’s happening in the changing room. They don’t know how players feel about the way they’re playing. You need to have that two-way communication, and I think he’s got that now.
Unless the players believe in what they’re doing, unless they feel ownership of the gameplan, they won’t do it for you.
British teams seem to have a strange realtionship with the national press.
Our press have a lot to answer for.
Was Danny Cipriani a victim of media hysteria?
He was kicked out of the England squad for being a disruptive influence, and I agree with it. You’re much better having a slightly less talented guy that everyone will work their socks off to play for.
You go to the type of agent he’s with and ask that, they’ll do it for you. And not necessarily for the right reasons.
Do press expectations tend to get too high ahead of big games?
No, no, no! I don’t think it’s that; I think it’s more the other way around, actually. You probably saw England, on the back of four good performances, coming to Ireland with expectations, but there was still, pre- that game, an undercurrent of “… but if England don’t do it, it’ll prove they’re not really contenders.”
I actually think at the moment, with the state of English rugby, it’s more a case of English rugby being seen to be bad, then when they win a game: *crowd cheering noise* “HEROES!”
You never have an English team slightly improving. They’re either bloody brilliant, or awful.
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