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Leinster having four talented out-halves isn’t great for the health of the game in Ireland

Leinster’s out-half depth chart was up for discussion on The 42 Rugby Weekly Extra this week.

WITH NO INDICATION that any of Leinster’s out-halves are strongly considering a move away from the province, how are Connacht going to replace JJ Hanrahan following his ACL injury?

“I wouldn’t be surprised if Connacht end up with an NIQ signing at out-half,” Murray Kinsella told Gavan Casey and former Leinster star James Tracy this week on Rugby Weekly Extra, exclusively available to The 42 subscribers.

“They have permission to get a NIQ at out-half to cover Hanrahan so they’re definitely in the market looking at those options,” Kinsella continued.

Equally, the question of how Leo Cullen will continue to balance the game time amongst his out-halves next season is another question which must be answered.

Leinster’s staggering wealth of options at 10 have been a consistent discussion point amongst fans from all four provinces throughout the season, as Byrne brothers Ross and Harry, Ciarán Frawley and Sam Prendergast have battled it out for minutes.

“For Leinster to have four very talented out-halves isn’t great for the overall health of the game in the country when other provinces are just struggling for players in that position who are ready to play proper URC or Champions Cup rugby,” said Rugby Weekly Extra host Gavan Casey.

For James Tracy, his view on the matter differs depending on whether he has his Leinster or Irish hat on.

“As an Irish rugby fan, I think at least two of that depth chart need to be moved on or have a decision to move to a different province, one to Ulster and one to Connacht. [Then they can] play week in, week out and at least give themselves a chance to make the step up to be Ireland’s starting out-half. There’s only one spot available in Leinster and there’s four of them who are good enough to play in that position!

“From a Leinster point of view, if we can keep them all why wouldn’t we? That much talent… if you can keep them happy enough that they want to stay, you definitely don’t want to strengthen the other provinces. You want to have the best possible squad, as deep as you can in each position.” 

Putting himself in the shoes of the young out-halves, Tracy did find it difficult to argue against the idea of some of the players getting some experience outside of Leinster.

“To reach the heights that I think he [Frawley] can reach, I think he needs to be playing the same position week in, week out so that he can master it. That goes for Harry Byrne and Prendergast too. 

“To become the world class talents that they can become, they need to be playing in the big games like Ross Byrne can. The only way that they can do that without a change in selection or a big drop off in form from Ross Byrne is a move.”

For all of the outside talk surrounding what a player should do or where they should go, Kinsella was keen to note that at the end of the day rugby players are human and that an increase in potential game time is far from the only factor that should be considered when lining up a transfer.

“You definitely can’t force someone [to move]. Just because it’s rugby it doesn’t make it any different. Some people like living where they are around their family. It’s the same as any job in that regard. You’ve got to consider many factors other than the specifics of the job and the opportunity to do more of it somewhere else,” Kinsella concluded

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    Mute Tom
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    Jun 7th 2024, 1:54 PM

    The Byrne brothers are not good enough for champions cup level…..

    The way Leo Cullen gets no stick for his rotation system is a joke!!!
    Prendegast and frawley are far superior players in every capacity….

    Just a complete waste of talent…

    David Humphreys has to step in here and move one of the brothers on…

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    Mute Jack Dermody
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    Jun 7th 2024, 3:23 PM

    @Tom:
    Sam isn’t big enough for European rugby yet… needs to put on weight…
    If Frawley was lent to Connacht 6 years ago for two years, I believe Leinster would have the six stars on there chest (last and this year).
    Leinster should loan to Connacht, they will plough minutes on the field at number one. Connacht minutes is not sitting behind a dominate pack and playing no 10 in low risk paint by number.

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    Mute Tom
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    Jun 7th 2024, 3:26 PM

    @Jack Dermody: yes I partially agree with you about his size but I think he’s a better defender than Ross sadly… if he can gym and eat all summer I think he could make the step up

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    Mute Michael Corkery
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    Jun 7th 2024, 5:45 PM

    @Tom: the more you look at the OH situation in Leinster and their failure to win trophies, the less impressive Leo Cullen looks. Yes, the margins are tight but Leinster are consistently coming out on the wrong side.

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    Mute Owen ODonoghue
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    Jun 7th 2024, 8:04 PM

    @Tom: people forget Leinster in the pre-Contempomi era, we had a string of mediocre outhlaves but the rest of the squad was extremely strong. We never made won anything significant until we got Contepomi. We got blessed as Sexton took the jersey from Cont, unfortunately Byrne didnt do the same to Sexton despite him being in his late 30s. TBH if we didnt have SP or Frawley I would be advocating for Leinster to get a NIQ quality 10 for next season

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    Mute anthony davoren
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    Jun 7th 2024, 9:08 PM

    @Tom: really???? I’m no Ross Byrnes biggest fan but he is more than good enough for champions cup rugby. Sure he has guided Leinster to back to back finals where they lost by the smallest of margins. He also played most of the European games in the year before that leading to the final while Sexton was minded.

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    Mute Tom
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    Jun 7th 2024, 11:50 PM

    @Michael Corkery: your message makes no sense

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    Mute Tom
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    Jun 7th 2024, 11:52 PM

    @Owen ODonoghue: q completely irrelevant comment

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    Mute Liam23
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    Jun 7th 2024, 2:17 PM

    I won’t say all 4 are talented, Ross Byrne is fairly limited, Frawley a minimum amount of playing time at 10, Ben Healy was ahead of Harry Byrne at U20 level but Farrell didn’t see it that way. Prendergast has potential but stuck behind the other 3 will limit his development

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    Mute Eoin H
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    Jun 7th 2024, 2:19 PM

    @Liam23: Sorry, can we not do basic research here. Healy was absolutely not ahead of Harry at u20 level, that is a load of nonsense

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    Mute Aprior
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    Jun 7th 2024, 2:33 PM

    @Eoin H: different year

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    Mute mark sheehan
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    Jun 7th 2024, 3:37 PM

    @Liam23: fair play to Healy, at least he showed the belief in his ability to move on and test himself when it became obvious that he wasn’t a part of Farrell’s plans.

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    Mute Liam23
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    Jun 7th 2024, 3:58 PM

    @Eoin H: relax princess, Byrne was the starting 10 during the 2018 championship but Healy overtook him in 2019 and was the starting 10 during the World Cup

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    Mute Jude B
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    Jun 7th 2024, 4:24 PM

    @Liam23: nice one casual. Harry Byrne was injured for the u20 world championship after being instrumental in the Slam. Do any of ye watch rugby or just look at 42 articles?

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    Mute 3xHUEOS7
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    Jun 7th 2024, 6:07 PM

    @Jude B: hardly instrumental in the 2019 U20 grand slam. He played 3 of the 5 games. Didn’t play at home to France or away to Wales

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    Mute anthony davoren
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    Jun 7th 2024, 9:10 PM

    @Liam23: stop Liam that’s so inaccurate. Healy was not ahead of Harry at u20

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    Mute Owen ODonoghue
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    Jun 7th 2024, 3:16 PM

    Send Harry to Connacht and Ross to Ulster, we still have Frawley, Prenderghast, Tector and Barrett next season. Let’s see if the Byrnes can survive outside the Leinster set up

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    Mute Stephen Nolan
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    Jun 7th 2024, 4:49 PM

    @Owen ODonoghue: So send the starting 10 and by far in a way the first choice 10 to Ulster. Keep a 21 year old 10, a 22 year old 10 with less than 200 minutes of pro rugby. A utility back who has 4 starts at 10 in as many years. With a fullback/centre (it’s Jordie not Beauden) to cover 10.

    Thank god numpties on here don’t get to make any decisions about Leinster rugby.

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    Mute Michael Corkery
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    Jun 7th 2024, 5:51 PM

    @Stephen Nolan: gif forbid, ye might win a trophy!

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    Mute chris mcdonnell
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    Jun 7th 2024, 6:05 PM

    @Stephen Nolan: just because he’s first choice doesn’t mean he’s good enough or the best choice. I

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    Mute Owen ODonoghue
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    Jun 7th 2024, 7:56 PM

    @Stephen Nolan: guessing this is Leo Cullens burner account?

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    Mute Ciaran Kennedy
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    Jun 8th 2024, 5:12 AM

    @Stephen Nolan: Jordie was a 10 first. If Leinster told Harry he can go, the only thing that’s changed since offering him contract is Jordie. Leinster have 4 Irish international centres and one almost good enough. Leinster and Ireland fans should be seriously pissed off with IRFU if Jordie is starting centre next year in Europe. It’s most certainly the position you are strongest. Yes, I know everyone loves that back row but they keep getting bettered in big games.

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    Mute Mick Joe
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    Jun 8th 2024, 2:47 PM

    @Michael Corkery: Win one URC and you think the world revolves around you. Typical Corkonian klype.

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    Mute Aidan Farrell
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    Jun 7th 2024, 3:33 PM

    Huge amount of hyperbole in that article. Prendergast has barely played at all, Frawley hasn’t much experience at 10 and both Byrne brothers have repeatedly come up short in the biggest of games. Equating that to four talented outhalves is a bit of an exaggeration. It’s the biggest problem in Irish rugby – players being hyped up because of what school they went to or what province they play for.

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    Mute John Morris
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    Jun 7th 2024, 8:35 PM

    @Aidan Farrell: Am I the only one who thinks that 6’4” is just too tall to play the full game of a modern 10? I have searched through all the ‘greats’ and their average height is about 5’11” – the only exception being Handre Pollard at 6’4” and that is not the style of player that Sam is. With extra kilos comes less manoeuvrability and pace, so it’s not as simple as that. The lad has great skills, but his frame may lend itself to 15 in the long run.

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    Mute James Murphy
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    Jun 7th 2024, 9:38 PM

    @John Morris: I started reading that thinking stupid and then started to agree with you lol

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    Mute Christiaan Theron
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    Jun 8th 2024, 1:00 AM

    @John Morris: Blair Kinghorn played a bit of ten and he is now a FB so some skills are transferable. However Sam will have to develop the skills needed to be a top ten. An important skill is the ability to take the ball into the teeth of the defense. For that he will need physique, height even width are red herrings.

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    Mute Brenda Collins
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    Jun 9th 2024, 9:55 AM

    @John Morris: sexton is 6 ft 2. Dan biggar 6 ft 2. Ben Healy is 6 ft 3. Byrne brothers are both 6 ft 3 as well. I don’t think it will be that much of an impediment to Sam Prendergast. Just might take him longer to fill out.

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    Mute chris mcdonnell
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    Jun 7th 2024, 1:59 PM

    This idea that leinster have 4 outhalves is wrong in Leo’s eyes. He sees 3. Frawley has only started 1 game this year at 10. Ross byrne was 8 minutes injured before Leo subbed him in the champions Cup. The year before he left Ross on the full game.

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    Mute Steadman Reede
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    Jun 7th 2024, 5:01 PM

    @chris mcdonnell: and we lost both games.

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    Mute Eoin H
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    Jun 7th 2024, 2:14 PM

    Harry Byrne should grasp this opportunity. His performances against the Lions and Ulster were so so poor, if he can’t see that then he’s delusional. This is such a good opportunity for him, if he doesn’t take it that’s a bit childish and ridiculous. Connacht have a really exciting back line next year also

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    Mute Andrew Slazenger
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    Jun 7th 2024, 2:27 PM

    @Eoin H: Nail on the head! Great opportunity for him to revive his career

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    Mute Stuart
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    Jun 7th 2024, 3:24 PM

    Honestly, if Leinster don’t win the URC with this Champions cup side and that squad (AKA pretty much the Irish international team), then heads should roll. I mean surely it’s a certainty this year given no rotation required in these playoffs because of another comp… If they lose out on this year’s URC trophy that would be absolutely shocking….

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    Mute Michael Corkery
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    Jun 7th 2024, 5:56 PM

    @Stuart: Stuart- as a Munster fan, I completely agree with you. As much as I want Munster to beat them in the final (dream scenario), I’m realistic enough to know that Leinster have the best squad in the URC and possibly only Toulouse have comparable strength. If Leinster don’t win the URC, Leo Cullen should assume responsibility and step down.

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    Mute Owen ODonoghue
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    Jun 7th 2024, 7:58 PM

    @Stuart: well the problem is they have 14 international class players but have a mediocre starting outhalf

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    Mute Shane
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    Jun 7th 2024, 2:51 PM

    It’s shouldn’t be just up to player and Leinster here. IRFU should get proactive. Dangle a central contract or some other incentives for at least one to move.
    If you look at Frawley he’s covering Centre 15 and 10, Harry has done something similar (less 15 experience) and Leinster go sign Barrett who covers every back position. That’s a clear sign Leinster are looking at 2 backs on bench in future. It’s going to severely limit game time. It more than likely means Sam will never even make the bench in Europe next year( I mean the bigger competitive games)
    Personally I’d be asking Sam to go play at least a season in Connacht and either of other 2 to go to Ulster.
    Only personal opinion but if you consider yourself a good 10 surely you look at that Ulster back like and think there is a real chance you could make things happen there and nail down a test spot.
    Then you have guy like tector who can’t get a look in also.

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    Mute Justin Robinson
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    Jun 7th 2024, 3:07 PM

    @Shane: Ulster says no thanks. It’s pretty obvious that Leinster don’t want SP to go to Connacht and their hand has been forced to an extent. Makes sense to keep him and link up with the new attack coach from day one. CF is obviously a useful guy for the 23. V poor from all concerned if HB doesn’t spend the year in Galway which could easily lead into a full time starting role in 12 months if he’s good enough.

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    Mute Kingshu
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    Jun 7th 2024, 6:59 PM

    @Justin Robinson: Think its been reported HB has been told Leinster won’t stand in his way of finding a new club, which is strange after they recently extended his contract, but it looks like he has been told basically he doesn’t have a future at Leinster. Which is a shame he wasn’t told before the new conacht because it means Connacht will have to pay same as Leinster were. Dont think Connacht can afford HB Carty and JJ. May IRFU will cover part of wages for a season or two? Also becuase it was renewed and then told can move, the opportunity at Ulster has gone. If fairness I’d rather have a punt on Morgan than have had HB.

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    Mute John Clifford
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    Jun 7th 2024, 4:31 PM

    You would imagine with Barrett arriving next season as a utility back, the same as Frawley (10,12,15). Opportunities for young Sam Pendergast are going to be minimal, especially with 4 other possible flyhalf options and Tector coming through too. The obvious thing is with Barrett arriving for 6 months is for Pendergast to ho on loan to Connaught for the season to help both provinces and to push on his development. Also, i think Harry Byrne needs to move on just to see if he is in anyway a good flyhalf (i think fairly average myself). A move to Ulster would have made sense but they’ve filled the 3 flyhalf positions now, while Connacht would be a good permanent option too. If he doesn’t move now he’ll end up over in England as backup in afew years…wondering what if?!

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    Mute teuO6nLS
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    Jun 7th 2024, 3:59 PM

    I guess one of Beirne, Ahern, Edogbo or Evan O’Connell will be moving on then shortly enough since 3 Irish locks can’t be sitting out games every week?

    No? Thought as much.

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    Mute kieran horgan
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    Jun 7th 2024, 5:23 PM

    @teuO6nLS: what are you on? Ahern is playing 6, edogbo is injured and O’Connell is under 20. This weekend Munster have no Second Row sub.

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    Mute Mistral
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    Jun 7th 2024, 5:25 PM

    @teuO6nLS: Article is about Leinster 10s. Why bring Munster forwards in to it?

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    Mute Michael Corkery
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    Jun 7th 2024, 5:59 PM

    @teuO6nLS: rubbish comment

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    Mute munsterman
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    Jun 7th 2024, 6:26 PM

    @teuO6nLS: munster had to let go rg snyman to make room for these young lads. In fairness to leinster they let go a great servant in Ross moloney to make room for him then

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    Mute Brenda Collins
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    Jun 7th 2024, 6:43 PM

    @teuO6nLS: this is a pointless comparison. The first three of those players you mentioned aren’t struggling to get minutes – they’ve played loads and they perform consistently well. EOC is in the academy so he’s still developing. This isn’t remotely like Leinster’s 10 situation where they basically don’t know who their best 10 is, who their future 10 is, or who their current best substitute 10 is. Is Frawley better than Harry Byrne? Should they ignore both of them and just fast-track SP and give him precious minutes so he can step up? We just don’t know. Right now they have one decent but limited 10 in RB, an unknown quantity in HB, a utility back who could be 10 in CF but rarely starts, and a youngster who has insane potential but is currently behind all of them in the pecking order.

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    Mute fintan smith\
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    Jun 7th 2024, 6:13 PM

    Ross byrne was and is an average 10. Frawley is a very robust,strong footballer. In the present rugby climate, eg south africa, la rochelle, you need a robust 10 like jack crowley.
    I think the byrne brothers are very shy when it comes to making hard tackles. Bigger picture- irish rugby coaches should scout more gaelic footballers,for example,players with a bit of dog in them. O’mahony is a good example. He wins ball he has no right to win. That is why leinster lost the last 3 champions cup finals. La rochelle & toulouse wanted it more. Think wales- see what they achieved in the last 20 years. No blackrock or st michaels bullshit there. I rest my case.

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    Mute Colm O'Keane
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    Jun 7th 2024, 10:41 PM

    @fintan smith\: yeah because Leinster and Ireland have won nothing for the last 15 years !! You should take over from Leo and Humphreys

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    Mute Barry Lynch
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    Jun 7th 2024, 4:42 PM

    Don’t remember any similar media frenzy when Crowley, Healy & Carberry were all at munster?
    Funny that….

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    Mute Arjuna
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    Jun 7th 2024, 5:45 PM

    @Barry Lynch: it does look poor managemnt to have lost both Carberry and Healy. At this moment in time Crowley, Carberry and Healy would nearly be 1 2 and 3 in irish pecking order although Frawley looked the part when he was eventually brought on vs Toulouse

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    Mute munsterman
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    Jun 7th 2024, 5:51 PM

    @Barry Lynch: now only crowley is left of those 3, the other 2 decided they wanted to play rugby and try to be the main man at 10 elsewhere. If a player like frawley is happy to continue along as a utility back then good on him, it seems he himself doesn’t really see himself as an out and out 10

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    Mute Nicholas Farrar
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    Jun 7th 2024, 7:56 PM

    I wish people would stop being obsessed about Prendergast being too small. He’s 6’4 and was 91Kg last summer, so probably more now. Yes, he can work on his defence, but he’s big enough, even if aesthetically he doesn’t look huge. Certainly, he’s a lot bigger than George Ford and about the same weight as Romain Ntamack, with the potential to be bigger.

    My suspicion is that he’ll become a regular starter next season and be pushing for Heineken cup starts by the start of 2025.

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    Mute Tom Murphy
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    Jun 7th 2024, 8:29 PM

    @Nicholas Farrar: yeah photo of him beside his bother after last match and they looked similar sizes

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    Mute Kingshu
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    Jun 7th 2024, 6:43 PM

    I’m not sure why people think theres an option to move a player to Connacht for a couple years for gametime and development, and then move them back. Connacht would not be intrested, they would prefer to put that gametime and development into one of their own players, and have the developed player long term. There is a window for a loan for a back up OH for this season, but thats it. Anyone coming to be first choice will be in for the long haul, not to take up development time from a connacht player and go back home. Likewise Ulster, there was a window for someone like Frawley, middle of this season to move, but that opportunity is closed. Aidan Morgan is on his way, and anyone moving will not be guaranteed to be starting 10. Morgan appears to be a very exciting running OH.

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    Mute David Clarke
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    Jun 7th 2024, 7:34 PM

    Needs to move on both byrnes,neither inspire confidence or have the flair or skill set to be world class 10s and ive supported both for years but no more

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    Mute Tom Reilly
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    Jun 7th 2024, 4:58 PM

    Three talented players behind another talented OH. One of the three is a utility back, one an enigma and the other an academy player. Now all three are talented but don’t play at outhalf very often and are woefully inexperienced at the top level.

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    Mute PatN
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    Jun 7th 2024, 11:00 PM

    I would be delighted if Harry Byrne came to play for Connacht. He would get loads of game time, be under less scrutiny (and negative comparative comments), and get a chance to rebuild his confidence.
    He is a better player than he is given credit for – a couple of years ago the same punters who are promoting Frawley were demanding they HB be picked; he was – for a champions cup game but got injured. Subsequent starts have been ok. But, he was the backup OH for ireland this season.
    Connacht badly need a decent kicker – out of hand and from the tee. HB would fill that void. However – such is the bias for picking Leinster and Munster players for ireland, moving to Connacht would be career suicide.

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    Mute Christiaan Theron
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    Jun 8th 2024, 1:23 AM

    @PatN: It hasnt been for Bundee or Mack…

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    Mute Christiaan Theron
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    Jun 8th 2024, 1:24 AM

    @Christiaan Theron: Or Finlay.

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    Mute Keno
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    Jun 7th 2024, 6:30 PM

    Actually the article isn’t quite right – you ‘can’ be asked to move if you have a job whether you like where you live or not – in this case you could of course decline to be moved but that might impact on your selection for Leinster but also Ireland. Getting Leinster ‘spares’ to move north to Ulster and develop themselves as players doesn’t seem to be option at all – does it? The IRFU should be more joined up in its approach.

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    Mute Tom Murphy
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    Jun 7th 2024, 8:07 PM

    I’m suspicious as to why both the Byrne brothers are still at Leinster. Better talent coming through

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    Mute SAMUEL T McGLADERY
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    Jun 7th 2024, 11:20 PM

    Both Byrnes are inconsistent and have limited ability .
    FC is in my opinion a better 12 than 10 and of the 4 SP looks the best going forward.

    The only player who would fit in at 10 with Ulster ‘s back line would SP .

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    Mute Paudie Slattery
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    Jun 8th 2024, 7:51 AM

    The provincial structure is going to hamper irelands rugby development in the long run. Country (inside pale) now producing more players than they can handle. Provincial rugby structure also Leinster and the likes a clear advantage over English and French teams, Leinster can rest their best players for URC, the English and French teams cannot. Only a matter of time before teams from these countries withdraw again.

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    Mute Eddie
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    Jun 8th 2024, 9:19 AM

    Leo needs to be ruthless. Ross has had the chances to replace Sexton but failed. Marseilles 2022, Leinster winning, Sexton replaced by Ross B but he doesnt see out the game. He couldn’t do it then and hasnt done ot since. Easy for me to write that here in the comfort of my house but Leo needs to take tough love for the team and for Ross himself in the long run.

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