BERNARD JACKMAN BELIEVES Jean Kleyn will only get better in a green jersey as he settles into Test rugby and has backed the Munster second row to start Ireland’s opening World Cup game against Scotland ahead of Iain Henderson.
The inclusion of Kleyn in Joe Schmidt’s 31-man squad ahead of Devin Toner has sparked major debate but after winning his third cap against Wales on Saturday, former Ireland hooker Jackman believes Kleyn is in a strong position to start alongside James Ryan.
Although Kleyn coughed up two early penalties at the Aviva Stadium on Saturday, the big lock’s influence on the game grew as the afternoon progressed, with Schmidt describing the 26-year-old’s performance as ‘solid’.
The Ireland head coach will be hoping for much more from Kleyn in Japan but, speaking on The42 Rugby Weekly, Jackman says the South African-born second row ‘looks like he is nailed on to start’ in Ireland’s engine room for that Yokohama opener on 22 September.
“I think he had a poor start against Wales but it was out of his eagerness to make an impact,” Jackman said. “He got picked up for being offside in the defensive line, but it wasn’t because he was being lazy, he literally just wanted to make a huge hit.
“And then a little bit over-enthusiastic when he came in at the side of a maul on Elliot Dee. He probably felt the hooker had dis-engaged and re-joined the maul but you’ve got to check with the referee first there, so from that point of view, to give away two penalties in the Joe Schmidt model where you sometimes can have two penalties in a game, wouldn’t be good.
“But I thought after that he settled in and we said he wouldn’t have to go looking for contact against Wales because it was going to come to him and I think he handled it pretty well. Some good tackles, but probably not the biggest ball-carrier. We knew that anyway.
“Some good tackles and the physical scrum was good. I thought he was good against Italy in the first game and then obviously against England he was anonymous like everybody else, but certainly a solid game. It looks like he is nailed on to start. Kleyn and James Ryan will probably start against Scotland, with Henderson off the bench.”
Jackman added: “Henderson can drift in and out of games, to be honest, and he’s not the best scrummager in the world apparently. I just think Kleyn is there, and he’s going to get better as you have to remember it’s only his third Test. Whatever he has done up until now, you’ve got to imagine he’s going to get better and better when he gets comfortable with that environment.
“We know what Joe says he brings: tighthead scrummager, physicality and an enforcer type player. I suppose that’s what he brings more than Henderson but Henderson is still top-class and could give us great impact off the bench and can also cover six if you’re stuck.”
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Yeah…. Nah. Henderson is a far superior rugby player, both in defense and carrying. Ryan Henderson is the combination going forward.
@: Totally agree.
@Tom Reilly: Well that’s sorted so. Thanks lads.
@Decko49:
That is very generous of you Deck :: But you know in your heart of hearts, Hen is the man ::when he came on in the second half things got better !! And that is no disrespect to J K
@Martin Quinn: when kilcoyne came on for Healy the scrum got better Martin, I’d still start healy
@Tim Magner:
Tim because Healy is in the top 4 LH props in the world :: We are so lucky that Kilcoyne has come on in leaps and bounds this last season :: but Healy is still no. 1 :: but we have IMO the best impact Subs in the N H
Croyan and Kilcoyne come on and inject a great bit of energy to the team :: So it works for the team ::J K worked hard but he has not convinced me (but who the hell am I ) that is the reason I would go to Hen ::
If by playing kleyn on the tighthead frees James Ryan to play his game and cover ground then that’s the right call. Ryan is our retallick and seeing him on sat tackling lads out on the wing was great. He can do it no bother but having a talent like Ryan just for the close in grunt work is a bit of a waste
@Tim Magner:
Tim I would always take Hen, as he is the strongest man in the back 5 of the pack !! IMO
@Martin Quinn: that doesn’t mean he’ll bring the best out of Ryan though Martin, who is our genuine world class talent in the 2nd row. Look it’s my opinion, I’ve been arguing it all night, but looking at Ryan on Saturday he might win us a big game at the WC. He can do all the sh*t work too though
@Tim Magner:
I coached for a number of years and as a forward that was my area:: the amount of work James has to do as a LH S/R is not a lot:: it is scrumming one side is a bit different head position and Shoulder positions :: More pressure comes on the T/H SR I will give you that but not as much as some people indicate:: So ( IMO ) having a big man on the tight side helps but it does not make that big a difference (James could play either side ) Now that is my view and please take it from me that I am not taking it from JK :::he is on our team and I will be cheering him on and as I said he is a hard worker but it just I believe Hen is the right man to have with J R ::::.
Fellas are slowly coming round to Kleyn and what he does well and what he can do for Ireland. Given his treatment from the media in the last few weeks I’d say it’s about time there were a few positive pieces on the guy.
@Jim Demps: Schmidt obviously rates the guy highly. He’s not there to do anything flash but if it lets Ryan be flash it has to be good for the team. Ryan and Henderson are both in a lot of ways similar players just that Ryan is better. Henderson is miles more talented than kleyn but I don’t know if what Henderson does is what Joe wants
@Tim Magner: I honestly don’t think he’ll be starting, last weekend was just another opportunity to get the least experienced member of the squad more game time as far as I can see. Saying that though if schmidt is worried about ballast with one eye on a quarter final then no better fella, he certainly has no issues with dominating the collisions
@Jim Demps: I didn’t think he’d be starting but I wouldn’t be shocked at this stage given the amount of chatter. TH lock is an absolute slog of a position by all accounts and would wear the fittest of players down especially in Japanese conditions. Schmidt might be thinking that rather than having one of Henderson/Ryan wasted doing donkey work for most the game he could start with Kleyn and then with a Henderson/Ryan combo. It might be the best way to conserve their energy over the course of the tournament and if he wanted be he could start them together come the knockouts and they’d have plenty left in the tank.
@Jim Demps: I don’t know Jim, as soon as toner was left out I thought kleyn had a chance. He did ok on sat but whether he did enough I don’t know. I’d actually be leaning towards playing him against Scotland who are nothing special as a defensive line out team. It’s against teams like eng & nz who are excellent at wrecking a teams lineout I’d leave him out. Don’t think sa are that great in the lineout either. Anyway he’s big & heavy but not a bad lineout forward at all. The ball that was lost on Saturday didn’t even reach him. The 2nd lineout alright was a lovely steal by awj against cj
@Eddie Hekenui: yeah that makes sense alright. Donkey work is for Donkeys and no better lad than Kleyn to get it done.
@Eddie Hekenui: all the same I think JS is thinking more around the minutes he can save for Hendo and Ryan vs Japan , definitely Russia and probably Samoa . Kleyn could play 6 vs Russia , because Ireland can coast to a big score but some of the players will need protection,the Russians are big physical lads who’ll want to make a mark . Some players should be in cotton wool that day .
@Jim Demps: personally prefer Toner but that argument is spent. However having someone who understands Afrikaans against the Springboks could prove vital in a most likely quarter final scenario. Plus you’d imagine he would be more acustomed to Japan’s climate than the majority of the squad.
@Jim Demps: I said months ago that he’d travel but I thought it was instead of Bierne.
Scotland would target Kleyn for sure! . Henderson doesn’t exactly sit back from tackles either. And he also offers ball carrying ability and a lineout option. Henderson/Ryan all day.
@Harry O’Callaghan: target him with what? Toolis ? Cummings?
@Tim Magner: No with Johnny Gray and Grant Gilchrist. The other two arn’t bad players either. Scotland’s pack is pretty much the Glasgow pack, throw in John Barclay & Hamish Watson too. Watson was an absolutr beast against a huge french pack 2 weeks ago. They’re very well rounded imo. And have definitely improved. They’re defence can be a bit suspect at times but they play an expansive, running/offload game with one run out numbers. They’re backs are very dangerous too with Hogg, Russell, Hutchinson, Kinghorn, Seymour. Kleyn isn’t mobile enough, they would probably run rings around him, a bit like Toner. Imo I think he’d be a guy perfect to bring on after 60 minutes because Scotland will be tired and won’t want to face tackling a 6ft 8. 20 stone man.
@Harry O’Callaghan: Jonny grey will tackle all day, great hearted lad, but he’s no threat as a carrier. Gilchrist! Look if we’re worrying about that 2nd row we’re doomed! Watson is a fantastic player and so I think vdf has to play. Mcinally is a terrific player but in fairness he makes our hookers look accurate. We put pom at 2 for their throws, Ryan at 4, get them up in the air, if they want to throw to the back I guarantee you our tail-gunner will get the ball more times than not. Their backs are very good alright but if we put the squeeze on up front I’d be confidant anyway. Loved our defence on Saturday, no messing, hit hard, henshaw was unreal for his 1st game back
@Harry O’Callaghan: what makes Scotland dangerous in my opinion is that Russell can make things happen off bad ball, a super player to watch and though he has flaws he’s very unpredictable & dangerous. Hogg is the same, a class act. D’Arcy Graham looks a serious player, though he’s quite small he’s brave and very classy. Think kinghorn can be got at and I don’t think their centres are as good as Scottish fans think, Harris is no better than solid and I think Taylor has been done by injury. A dangerous enough team but if we can’t beat them we’ve a absolutely no business in the quarters
@Tim Magner: Gray & Gilchrist are both better players than Kleyn…More experienced and more all rounded players
@Tim Magner: Hes also played the last 3 games. Shmidts hardly going to start him after his first few caps, in probably our first probably most important game of the world cup. He’ll have him playing against Russia, Samoa and probably SA.
@Harry O’Callaghan: Harry he isn’t going in there as a play maker. How do you see any of the Scottish 2nd rows as more rounded than him? They’re all bog standard players, Jonny grey maybe a step above the rest. James Ryan is on a different planet to what they have. Kleyn only qualified 4 games ago & Schmidt played him in 3, he left out toner, if you don’t think he’s seriously in Schmidt’s plans well then you must think our coach only does things for the craic
@Tim Magner: Oh sorry he’s a world beaters then. Like I said Gray and Gilchrist have more experience and have had great seasons. They were both fantastic against France as well. I never said he was a play maker, he’s used for mauls, and to hit rucks. But in open play, he’s to slow. Scotland will just simply run around him. Why would he start him ahead of Henderson, who most people agree he’s a much better player than Kleyn, pushing and shoving isn’t enough to win you important world cup matches.
@Harry O’Callaghan: that wasn’t my argument at all, I think we have a world beater in Ryan. So if kleyn does the job of a heavy tighthead lock and it means Ryan is free to play a more loose game then how can that hurt the team? If Ryan & Henderson both play, two fantastic players, then will Ryan have to hit all the rucks? Can you not see what we’d lose then? Murray kinsella has a piece above about it. In the all blacks I’d bet the two best footballing, carrying 2nd rows are retallick & Barrett but all day they will pick whitelock to do the hard graft. I would never say kleyn is a patch on whitelock but he’s the only tighthead lock we have bar Ryan & my original point was why waste Ryan? Sometimes it’s about balance not talent
@Tim Magner: He gave away two school boy errors in penalties, and didn’t do great in the scrum, with all your talk about him. Henderson actually did a better job in the scrum when he came on. And he’s not meant to be a good scrummager apparently. The good thing Kleyn did last week was that choke tackle. The week before Henderson made a choke tackle as well! On top of that he has 48 caps & represented the lions. Henderson hits rucks and scrummages just as much?
@Tim Magner: I see your point, but my point still stands
@Tim Magner:
We will be facing the hardest lineout against Scotland (Johnny Gray and Grant Gilchrist.) that is when Hen would be best used.
@Harry O’Callaghan: ah c’ Mon he gave one penalty away when he jumped the gun in the 1st few minutes of the biggest game of his life, a lot of the time he wouldn’t have been pulled for that but I’d rate that french ref as a good un. Henderson is one of the most talented players we have but all his career he’s blown hot and cold. the one thing I’ll say about Ryan is he brings it every time and in my opinion he does everything better than Henderson, I’d build a pack to make him shine myself. Time will tell what Schmidt will do
@Martin Quinn: Martin if you think Jonny grey & grant Gilchrist is the best lineout we face then we have no worries! They’ll play Cummings cos at least he has a bit of power but if Scotland were offered kleyn now, 6’8″ and 20stone, they’d bite your hand off
@Tim Magner: He gave two penalties away, not sure what game you were looking at…And did nothing else the whole game. Didn’t even jump in the lineout. Henderson on a bad day is still better than Kleyn. I’d even have Tadgh Beirne ahead of Kleyn for what he brings to the team. Also Gilchrist is 6ft 8, 18s 8lbs. Kleyn is 6ft 8, 19s 1lbs. When Henderson came on last weekend, Ryan and Henderson hit the same amount of rucks ad each other. Didn’t see Ryan flourish much more than Henderson really. So not sure what game plan you mean there.
@Harry O’Callaghan: how many tackles did he make? How many rucks did he hit? See by saying he did nothing means ah nothing. As for not jumping in the lineout, did he do any lifting? Or were balls thrown to him where he didn’t bother jump? I’ve been consistent in saying Henderson is a better rugby player than kleyn but that’s not the point I was making. I think Ryan is a superior player to Henderson, Ryan is one of our stars, so if Ryan plays better with kleyn doing the donkey work rather than sharing the load with Henderson surely that’s better for the team? Barcelona built a team around Messi cos he’s class, let others do the heavy lifting, same with Madrid around Ronaldo. Ryan will do all the hard grunt work, but he’s better than that
@Tim Magner: look Harry I’ve been saying it for weeks now, probably banging on a bit in fairness, but I wouldn’t have picked toner, I’d have picked Ryan to call the lineouts and I’d pick kleyn to start with him for the big games. I think it’s the best balanced 2nd row we have mainly because Ryan is so good. I’ll pick my team for Scotland though
Healy
Best
Furlong
Kleyn
Ryan
Pom
Stander
Vdf
Murray
Sexton
Earl’s
Aki
Henshaw
Stockdale
Kearney
Kilcoyne, Cronin, Porter, Henderson, beirne, McGrath, carbery, ringrose
I picked beirne cos he can play 6/8, pom & stander can play 7. Close enough between ringrose and Conway but went for ringrose for covering centre
@Tim Magner: Maybe you’re right, we’ll have to wait and see. Ryan last week and every other week for that matter is literally like a physchotic robot out there. He’s almost too good! Early on in the game there was a ruck, and there was a bit of a scuffle between AWJ on the ground. Ryan put him right in his place. He’s just enormous and will only get bigger. I thought he outplayed him the whole game too. And that’s not easy considering Maro Itoje & Kruis were both outplayed by him the week before
@Harry O’Callaghan: that’s why I’d hate to see Ryan as a full-time tighthead lock, the grunt and the punishment you take there you need to get bigger. Ryan is an athlete, mobile, fast, skilful & aggressive. He’s gonna fill into his frame and is going to be a beast, but I hope he keeps what is making him special. Poc put on weight during his career to play tighthead lock, lost it and was better for it. I honestly think Ryan will light up this world cup, the other countries will be talking about him like Irish people are now cos he’s kinda still under the radar
@Harry O’Callaghan: Think this is where someone like Beirne comes in – he’s strong, agressive and can move. Would prefer to see Kleyn kept in reserve – really depends on how training is going or course and any niggles that players might pick-up.
We have a great panel of players for the first time ever. Last Saturday was a day when the replacements came seamlessly into the game and improved what was already there. In the end whether Sexton or Murray play, great players that they are, their replacements will put in a fine display.
@Con Cussed: I agree, Beirne would be very strong if he came in, I’m sure he’s chomping at the bit to be in, he calls line outs too. But with him and Ryan there. The scrum could be a big weakness. I just feel Kleyn is a liability overall though. But then again it’s only his 3rd cap. And he’s young so he could improve and prove me wrong
@Tim Magner:
Tim my point was that JK does not bring anything to the lineout :: where Jonny Gray is a fine Jumper :: so where do we face a better lineout and I am of course only talking about the pool games not the Q/F when we get there::
HOLD ON ::: I am not using this post to have a go at one of our players because he is on the Irish team we all support him ::if he is picked great :: So let’s leave it at that I believe JOE will pick Hen and JR and if he goes for JK::: GREAT ::OK ::: COYBIG
Kleyn starting might be bad news for Beirne as you’d have to think Henderson would be the versatile bench cover
Slightly bizarre call from Jackman.
Massively underrating Henderson here too, who is one of our most important players going into this tournament.
Very unlikely that Kleyn starts against Scotland, never mind being ‘nailed on’.
@Oval Digest: Henderson never starts when everyone is fit. He is important tho as it’s a full squad game now.
Think Jackman called his presence in games well. Sometimes he’s all over it, carrying and offloading, in others you’d barely know he’s on the pitch.
Don’t think he’s any better than Kleyn in the lineout…
Hahahahaha…….hahaha
This is going to drive the Dermots ballistic! ;-D
@Hakaman: why?
@Hakaman: where has the term dermots come from?
The reasoning for bringing Kleyn over toner (scrum) really only makes sense to me if he’s the starting 5 for the bigger games v Scotland, Japan and hopefully New Zealand or SA. Kleyn over Toner because you’re going to need to have a strong tighthead side scrummager for the group games v Samoa and Russia doesn’t make a whole pile of sense to me. Suspect Jackman is spot on.
@john smyth:
I believe JK was brought along is because he add bulk for the minor games and it will be Ryan and Hen for the major games !! Having him there means that we have someone who will relive our top S/Rs from having to play too many games in that heat of Japan !!
Doubt it, hendo is better carrier & disrupter. Jackman, hasn’t lit the coaching world alight, I’m not buying this
Bit of clown Jackman , he wasn’t very successful as a coach himself despite a large budget in Grenoble and got sacked by Dragon after an awful stint- suggested on the Leinster bias 42.ie videos that Stander wouldn’t be on the plane to Japan & the week before suggested that Ross Byrne (who is a great player to be fair) could springboard ahead of Carberry & Carty before the World Cup and push sexton for the Jersey. Henderson & Ryan are starting locks bring physicality , workrate , set piece and mobility with experience. Have Beirne of the bench for his jackling speed and try scoring ability
@John Carey: A clown because he has a different opinion to yours? Are only really successful head coaches allowed to say who they think should/will start?
@John Carey: Completely agree with you!
@James F Davis: Bective Rangers really is the pinnacle of rugby coaching
@James F Davis: in my humble opinion those who win frequently and are successful in general should be listened to because they must be doing something right.
@John Carey: in fairness I’d say Hansen wouldn’t help the dragons win.and Grenoble have done nothing since he left. Jackman mightnt be a great coach but he’s an interesting fella to listen to, knows his sh*t
@Tim Magner:
Right on Tim
Henderson all day
Kleyn will start with Ryan, Hendo on the bench. If he’s fit Joey will be pushing hard for the 15 Jersey as well.
@Malpas:
That is some input there Mal :: a jourynman will replace the 69 caps S/R ::B/R and one of the strongest players in this squad ::And Joey will replace RK after Saturdays display of great F/B play :: (by the way that is where I feel Joey should play after the WC )
I believe Ryan and Hen will be our main S/R IMO
@Harry O’Callaghan: Think this is where someone like Beirne comes in – he’s strong, agressive and can move. Would prefer to see Kleyn kept in reserve – really depends on how training is going or course and any niggles that players might pick-up.
We have a great panel of players for the first time ever. Last Saturday was a day when the replacements came seamlessly into the game and improved what was already there. In the end whether Sexton or Murray play, great players that they are, their replacements will put in a fine display.
If JS goes at all by a horses for courses game plan then Henderson will for sure start against Scotland. Scotland are mobile so is Henderson. They’re not a power team and their scrum is average usually, but moreso now they’re carrying a couple of injuries in the 2nd row. Kleyn will get his chance in the world cup. He’ll probably start against Samoa and Russia but unlikely he’ll be in the first 15 against Scotland or Japan imo.
@Ger:
Fully agree with you !!