@Jim Demps: Should have said Midleton however I sure you get the idea

@ktsiwot: Pretty much. I just don’t see the value in these “extra” divisions.

@Paul K Murphy: Agreed. Too much of the clubs resources are going towards the goal of the AIL rather than developing players and spending on the clubhouse etc. I would go further in Ulster. If they focussed resources around the AIL clubs which have a population base around them so they could generate gates then that would go some way to reviving the club game in Ulster. Some people believe that it’s because a lot of the students have gone to the UK or abroad and that’s killed the club game but the expense of competing in the AIL without income has got to be having a negative effect. By generating more income they could offer more academy scholarships at the clubs in a similar model to Lansdowne.

@Christiaan Theron: There is more to AIL rugby than 1A & 1B. Take my local club – Banbridge. Promoted to the old Div 4 in 1998 by winning a round robin series against the other 3 domestic provincial winners – just like Omagh last season. They’ve worked their way up to 1B by competing with & improving against sides at a similar level from all over Ireland alongside developing a huge mini rugby section & U14-20 setup that feeds into the 5 adult teams. I don’t see how dropping 1B & 2A-C will benefit or improve local rugby by consistently only playing teams who you play anyway in the provincial leagues and cups throughout the season as it is. Would Bann be competitive against the Clontarf/Lansdowne/Cork Con’s of this world? Maybe not at present. But a couple of seasons in 1B then who knows.

@Andrew Adams: Dropping 1B & 2A-C will improve local rugby because the resources and expenditure that is presently going into those pointless competitions will raise the standard and community interest in the provincial leagues. How much does it cost the club for the Bann to play in 1B and how do they raise the money?

@Andrew Adams: My local club has just made a recruitment http://m.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/sport/rugby/club-rugby/stevenson-to-drive-bangor-while-omagh-make-ail-return-36137294.html.
How much did that cost and where is the money coming from? That’s the kind of expenditure that the goal of playing AIL rugby creates.

@Christiaan Theron: so lets say we drop 1B to 2C inc and merge SONI 1 & 2. To fill the void of AIL, each side will need to play each other at least 4 or 5 times more home and away in a season. You’re saying that repetitiveness will increase community interest and improve the standard of rugby? The side that Bann put out in a SONI game is not the same side as that in a 1B game. Same with Hinch. Success generates money, attracts sponsorship and membership. How much it costs is not for me to say but Rifle Park on a saturday is nuts with each player (irrespective of age) generating a membership income, as do non-playing members. Look at the website and see the magnitude of club sponsors, then factor in league sponsorship, clubhouse income, merchandise income etc. Would that exist without AIL?

@Christiaan Theron: i neither know how much it cost or how they are paying for it but like any club, there will be individuals who will make a donation for a particular cause. The investment will only be measureable if the desired outcome is achieved and the speed of the same. Playing the same teams repetitively will not drive improvement in my opinion as the community bragging rights are already available through SONI and the cup.

@Andrew Adams: No now you are deciding what would replace the AIL and I did not say that repetitiveness will increase community interest but how many members attend away AIL games? Success does generate short term investment from sponsorship and membership. However as Ulster rugby proves even an underperforming side can produce gates of significant quantity. Ulster AIL clubs never seem to get their head round the fact that gate receipts is the main source of income for any other semi professional sport. Where would the Bann be without Ulster’s Academy Players and the players they put out in a 1B game? The simple fact is 1B to 2C add nothing to the standard of Irish rugby but the costs have bankrupted clubs. However a well run club will achieve success in any competition.

@Andrew Adams: There is the problem with clubs bankrupted in the past trying to pay players without enough income that includes gate receipts. Deep pockets of benefactors are short term. Well run clubs operating within their financial limits will drive improvements in my experience. Community bragging rights are meaningless when the “B” team is sent out to play. So I believe resources should be concentrated around clubs in the larger areas of population to develop gate receipts in order to play in 1A and more importantly increase the numbers of the Academy. I am pretty sure that playoffs at the end of season to regulate promotion and relegation of 1A would generate community interest because this model has been used in other sports.

@Christiaan Theron: your comment said relegation & promotion from the provincial leagues so i assumed existing structures were sufficient. Bann run buses to away games-they are quite popular days out. This is the 1st year Bann were allocated Academy players so, to answer your question, exactly the same position as now!! Read back & you’ll see i mention the youth structure feeding the senior side. Ian Porter is back & a product of that system (like the Bests & Howe) alongside his brother, three Cromies, two Ervines, Doherty, Kirkwood, Morrison, Little (not Lyttle), Weir, Montgomery – i could go on but the point is they’re all current 1stXV home grown from the minis. Michael Lowry will develop as a 10 with Bann for Ulster just like Joey Carbery did with Clontarf for Leinster. Added value.

@Andrew Adams: If 1B to 2C were replaced with provincial leagues how would the teams have to play each other 4 or 5 times ? Given there are 10 teams in 1B but there are 12 teams from Ulster in 1B-2C?

Connacht certainly need the AIL anyway.

@Christiaan Theron: those 12 sides already make up SONI Div 1 & 2. You suggested expanding 1A so at a guess, 2 of the Ulster sides in 1B would go into 1A leaving 10. If those 10 where of equal standing and ability, there wouldn’t be the need for SONI Div 1 & 2 as we currently have. Over a 28 week season in two tiers with even 6 sides in tier how many times would the clubs in each tier play each other? There will always be a tiering system otherwise sides will get tanked. Like it or not, not all of those 1st XVs can compete with each other. Small steps of success breed community spirit, development and value, not getting tanked. Those small steps reflect the current setup. We’ll have to agree to disagree on this one Christiaan.

@Andrew Adams: First of all is SONI not the seconds? So you are saying that there is such a difference between 1B to 2C that teams will get tanked? That’s convenient because without the tiering system what you have is 10 teams with a home and away season of 20 weeks with a further 8 weeks to play with in terms of playoffs to and from 1A. The tiering system is a result of recruitment and that’s back to money and investment. Having watched my local club Boom, Bust and now back to Boom. The AIL in its present format is structured for Boom and bust.

@Andrew Adams: While I would agree that not all of 1st XVs can compete. Are there not teams in the AIL divisions getting tanked?

@Christiaan Theron: SONI is not the seconds-thats the Towns Cup. It is the 2 tier senior league within Ulster. The winners of Div 1 are the champions. Relegation/promotion is between 1 & 2. Play Bangor 1st XV against Hinch 1st XV. It won’t be pretty. Say Bangor win this inaugral Ulster league c/w qualifiers & are thrown into the mix with the big hitters to travel the country next season. How will they fare with only limited exposure from 2C? How will they raise the huge revenue you say is required at the drop of a hat? Will they have the gate receipt to finance? Will they expect a load of players from the Academy to see them through? You are asking for a boom and bust system to be created! Bann did not recruit themselves to 1B. Read my earlier posts re product of youth structures.

@Andrew Adams: So youth rugby has put the Bann in division 1B? Everybody knows that mini rugby is the nursery for the Schools Cup. Look it’s fact. There is not a single Ulster representative in Division 1A. Bangor went from boom to bust and now they are recruiting former Ulster players. Now I know this the Bann have created an income from where who knows but not a single Ulster club has managed to create a sustainable income in division 1A. The day and hour that a club starts overspending it’s the end. If you took Donaghadee RFC and gave them the investment and structure of how to develop their club they could compete in Division 1A.

@Andrew Adams: At present there is Rugby League team called the Toronto Wolf pack who are full time in a semi Pro league working their way up the leagues and it’s a joke because they have the investment and structure that the other clubs don’t. You need to see Lansdowne because they are doing a lot right. Investment is everything. You can buy structure and buy players. What Ulster have is 12 clubs in the AIL spending goodness what and not a single one in the Division 1A. So the talent is spread over 12 clubs thinning out the standard. Those same 12 clubs are eating up financial resources and it doesn’t appear they are trying to develop finance from gates. Ulster need a representative number of clubs in Division 1A and quite frankly the rest could play Junior rugby for all that matters.

@Christiaan Theron: so you are saying Bann bought their way div 4 to 1B and it took 20years? Absolute rubbish Christiaan. I have shown you in previous posts the number of mini rugby products who play in Bann 1st XV. If mini rugby is the nursery for the schools cup then how come academic selection decides who can play in a grammer school?? Better than that, Banbridge Academy is an extremely successful hockey school whilst rugby struggles so clearly the minis is not the nursery you claim! What Bangor do is up to them and they will suffer pain or benefit from gain. Ian Porter is back at his home club after finishing with Connacht. That is not recruitment. That is a home grown desire for your club to progress and it can’t be bought….

@Christiaan Theron: you have just contradicted yourself. It isn’t ok for Bann to work their way up but it is for this RL side?? Bann did not buy players and frankly your ignorance to the enviable youth structures in Bann and Hinch is becoming annoying. I know what Lansdowne do thanks – you need to see Bann. If you knew anything about them and who the corporate sponsors are you would be able to identify the former players who achieved that AIL status and their companies. Their kids play at the club too. That is a home grown desire and it cannot be bought. We have guys in UU & QUB (also AIL) who share cars and travel back HOME for training. The Head Coach is even a former player! Tell Bangor to go back to junior rugby then and let the three 1B sides into 1A. Have a good day.

@Andrew Adams: Ok, Remind me who Michael Lower played schoolboy rugby For? Any player has their price as Lewis Stevenson has shown. What Ian Porters is you clearly don’t know. So the Bann is not investing in their way to the top? Now whose talking rubbish. It takes money to buy rum. You simply know damn all about it.

@Andrew Adams: Contradiction? Controversial more like and while Bann may not have bought players are you telling me that neither Hinch nor Bann dont pay players at All? I think you know nothing about Lansdowne or what lies beyond your little world of the 1B. It will be interesting to see which of the clubs gets promoted to 1A if it all. If I am so wrong when was the last time an Ulster club won the Division 1A?

@Christiaan Theron: I’m not running away from the topic at hand but there is no point in continuing this conversation. Yesterday i offered the chance to simply agree to disagree on what is in reality a petty matter. Unfortunately, that hasn’t happened and the tone of the comments is becoming unwelcome. The truth of the matter is Christiaan, you know as much about me as i know about you and, to be honest, i’m happy with that. I’ll toddle on back to my little country bumpkin world of 1B (where i’ll blissfully know nothing) and you can continue on with your informed analysis. I wish you well Christiaan and whilst i don’t agree with you on this particular matter, i respect your opinions on AIL rugby and your right to the same. Stay positive.

@Andrew Adams: Just because you can’t win an argument without reducing it to a condescending parochial tone. There’s no need to be intellectually insulting (blissfully know nothing). The problem with Irish rugby people in the North is that they will not engage in discussion where a valuable outcome is learned. All they want to do is hide behind what they know and repeat history. Pointing that out isn’t being negative it’s illustrating facts. If you find those difficult to take well they are what they are. To be honest the facts are Ulster rugby has not won a trophy in a decade. The record is worse in the AIL, 14 years since an Ulster club won the highest trophy. Pragmatism and progression will improve rugby in Ulster not narrow small town thinking. They have been doing that for too long.

@Christiaan Theron: it would be worth checking back to see who introduced the condescending and intellectually insulting tones with “little world” and “know nothing” comments. If i have offended you, i genuinely apologise. As i previously said, i respect your opinions. I also agree with many of your comments on previous threads especially in relation to Ulster Rugby progression and expect to do so in future. There is no ‘winner’ in this discussion and we will not agree on everything. AIL is not perfect but regionalising and having some sort of elitest superleague may not be either. The way some clubs are run is not perfect but some are well run. Some aspects of Ulster Rugby are good but some are not. Some people will agree on everything and some will not. I wish you well Christiaan.

@Andrew Adams: Quite frankly I hope your Bann get promoted because it’s been too long since Ulster had representation in 1A but be under no illusions there is still a lot of change necessary in Rugby in Ulster at all levels of administration. Where the demographics and lack of knowledge of professional rugby skew progress. Bearing in mind that the coaching team in place at Ulster has effectively proven themselves at Leinster. Andrew I wish you well too.