THERE IS a case to be made that it did not matter who Ireland’s manager was or what formation they played last night.
You could have had Pep Guardiola as manager. You could have reversed the two coaches and had Lee Carsley in the Irish dugout (in which he mistakenly sat initially).
Ireland could have tried a tiki-taka style or sat back and played long balls to Adam Idah (which is often what they did).
The gap in quality between the two sets of players was so wide that the outcome was perhaps inevitable.
The Boys in Green also arguably played England at the worst possible time.
Had Gareth Southgate stayed on after the Euros, there was a possibility of a flat performance — a hangover following their run to the final in Germany.
Instead, there was a spark and freshness to England under Lee Carsley that was seldom seen in the last days of his predecessor’s reign.
The 2-0 outcome if anything did not fully reflect the visitors’ sheer dominance.
The hosts completed just 54 passes in the first half compared to 352 by their rivals.
Stephen Kenny’s detractors often criticised his emphasis on playing out from the back and employing an attractive brand of football supposedly at the expense of positive results.
But Ireland reverting to an uglier version of their past selves is no guarantee of success either, as Saturday evening emphasised.
By contrast, England looked like a side learning to evolve from the Southgate era in an impressively short time.
Yet notwithstanding all those factors, there is no doubt Ireland made it all too easy for their opponents.
The first goal in particular was avoidable. To get caught out by a long ball over the top is poor from the Irish defence’s perspective.
🇮🇪 0-1 🏴
— RTÉ Sport (@RTEsport) September 7, 2024
Chance for Ireland but England go straight down the other end and score, eventually, through Declan Rice, who doesn't celebrate against the country he represented three times
📺 Watch on @RTE2 and @RTEPlayer
📻 Listen on @RTERadio1
📱 Updates… pic.twitter.com/AhDaoidxGk
The space England were afforded in midfield was a big factor in ensuring the game was so one-sided.
It is easy in hindsight, of course, but Ireland clearly weren’t effectively set up to combat the English attack.
They have persisted with the three-at-the-back system for over three years now.
Stephen Kenny actually began his reign with a four-man defence.
It was not until 24 March 2021, a 3-2 defeat away in Serbia, that the team first employed wing-backs — perhaps tellingly, it was also former assistant boss Anthony Barry’s first game in the dugout.
There have been a couple of exceptions since then, but Kenny mainly stuck with a three-man defence, with interim boss John O’Shea and now Heimir Hallgrímsson doing likewise.
The logic is clear. Centre-back is by far the position in which Ireland have the most strength in depth. So the coaches presumably have the aim of trying to get as many of these talented players on the pitch as possible.
There was a time too when Seamus Coleman and Matt Doherty were widely regarded as Ireland’s best players — so wing-backs made sense, particularly as Doherty is capable of playing on the left.
The problem is that Coleman, Doherty and Robbie Brady, who started at left wing-back, are now in their 30s.
For the wing-back system to be truly effective, you need players with excessive pace, dynamism and energy.
That is not to denigrate the above three players — they have been terrific servants to Ireland — but on the evidence of yesterday’s game and others, they are ill-suited to what is being asked of them.
Playing a three-man defence that often essentially became a five and the coaching staff’s desire to get three attackers on the pitch — Adam Idah, Sammie Szmodics and Chiedozie Ogbene — meant the two-man midfield of Will Smallbone and Jason Molumby often were overrun and England exploited the alarmingly wide spaces at will.
As a result, Ireland looked like a team caught between two conflicting philosophies. The starting lineup was bold yet their play lacked ambition and cohesion, as indicated by how rarely they passed the ball to one another.
If Ireland decided they would merely be difficult to beat, why not flood the midfield?
A four-man defence would leave Seamus Coleman in his more natural position at right-back and lessen the chances of his lack of pace being exposed by Anthony Gordon.
At left-back, rather than an instinctive attacker like Robbie Brady, someone with the defensive nous of Liam Scales — who appears set for another terrific season at Celtic — could be accommodated.
An extra hard-working midfielder like Alan Browne or Jason Knight would also have been welcome and Ogbene could still play out wide.
It would similarly make room for another winger like Kasey McAteer. And while Idah or Szmodics would need to be sacrificed, neither delivered the kind of exceptional performance on Saturday that suggests they are indispensable.
Tuesday’s opponents Greece might not be on the same level as England. However, based on the two still-quite-recent Euro 2024 qualifiers between the sides (less than a year has elapsed since their last meeting at the Aviva), they are better technically and tactically than Ireland.
It is that game, in addition to the upcoming Nations League encounters with Finland, where Hallgrímsson will be truly judged.
Therefore the Icelandic boss may have to consider this alternative approach to avoid a similar fate to Kenny once the current 18-month contract expires.
From an outside the pale view I think in general the media is soft on Leinster and it’s players while it swings the other way regarding other teams players and it’s most noticeable with non Irish players. There’s loads of examples of this but first up comes the seemingly incessant campaign for CJ to be dropped. We’ve had Andy Dunne, Gordon Darcy, Bod, Victor Costello, Luke Fitz all singing off the same hymn sheet for the last few years, first it was for conan and now for Doris.
Another example would be the quiet way Seán o Brien’s incident was left go last season, there was barely a ripple made about it in the papers which is in start contrast with say paddy Jackson or the abuse Gerbrandt Grobler got in the media.
I’d also mention the campaign for Dev Toner after he was dropped
@Jim Demps: we had the media looking to question world rugby rather than getting behind and supporting Kleyn and some of the abuse he got was quite toxic. Fast forward to the 6 nations and we’ve scores of articles about Dev and pushing for his recall and yet there hasn’t been a peep about his performance after the weekend in what was one of the worst lock performances I’ve seen for ireland in years.
People can set their hair on fire all they want with me but there’s a serious imbalance in the media in Ireland when it comes to rugby at the moment. Natural enough perhaps but possibly typified by the continued shouts for stander to be dropped after the English game after what was an excellent performance by him while the likes of Toner, Healy etc etc get their free pass
@Jim Demps: Well said Jim. Not so sure it’s the media looking for Standers head. Journos generally mention players should start but not who should be dropped. At the moment 26 lads ‘should’ start for Ireland. To ridicule a player means they won’t be invited into camp. If the tournament is already over then Stander would be our player of the 6N. 2 motm performances and a big showing in London. No one with blue tinted glasses could ever accept this.
@Jim Demps:
You think you get the poor end of the stick from the press in Dublin and I dare say you do but now share a thought for the players from Ulster
It has been the case and still is that players from north of the border have to play twice as well as his competitor for the position.
The southern press hire and fire the players and there is no doubt that they exert pressure on the coach in the written press.
50/50 calls rarely go to the Ulster player.
So in short you guys in Munster have nothing to worry about compared to up north
@Mark Smith: oh you think it’s bad in Ulster ?
I don’t think they do much as even look at Connacht’s results unless it’s an interpro, never mind look at performances.
@Jim Demps: Interesting take on things. Did you really expect the same reaction to absolute shithousery on a drunken night out (O’Brien) to be covered by the media in the same way as a player being in court due to allegations of rape (Jackson) and a known drugs cheat in Grobbler? Im not for a minute condoning what O’Brien did bit you could argue that if he wasn’t a professional sports player the incident would barely make a local paper. Alleged rape and steroids tend to make the news regardless of what province someone plays for
@Jim Demps: why would the media need to be harsh on the province that are performing way better than the other 3?
@JJ’s Wattage: you say O’Briens was only reported because he was a professional sports player but if Grobbler wasn’t a professional sports player he wouldn’t have made the paper either, a lot of average gym-goers get caught with steroids and it’s never reported at all.
And it was only Jackson’s profile as a professional sports player that made his case to be reported in the media.
@John Black: ok fair enough. The three incidents are equal in severity and you’d expect the same media coverage for all three yeah?? You’d be happy to go along that line??
@Jim Demps: can’t believe you’d actually compare the way o brien behaved to the way Jackson behaved. Yes o brien behaved very poorly, but it in no way is comparable to the disgusting language used by Jackson and his mates about woman, and the fact that he was prosecuted for rape. I’d actually be embarrassed for ye if it wasn’t such a disgusting thing to say. Your anti leinster / anti Dublin bias is so obvious
@JJ’s Wattage: jackson was found not guilty and there was no incident with grobler it happened before he got to Munster so the only incident really is Sean o’brien’s
@JJ’s Wattage: I never said that, I was just saying you can’t say O’Briens was only reported because he played professional sport when the other two were also only reported because they played professional sport.
And if Jackson was at any other province he’d have had anonymity and could even still be playing in Ireland.
@Paula Leavy: wasn’t prosecuted Paula, maybe that view point is in someway linked to the treatment in the media?
@Kohn Jeenan: You can’t really be serious with that response. I am well aware that Jackson was found Not Guilty. Nowhere in any of my comments did I even suggest otherwise. I simply find it hard to fathom that people would genuinely expect the same kind of coverage for each of these stories. By the by, using your own logic could you be a dear and stick up a link for where O’Brien was convicted in a court of law for the alleged offence? You have said his is the only real incident due to Jackson being found not guilty so…….
@Kohn Jeenan: he was still prosecuted and the way they spoke about women in the what’s app group was disgusting. And he was found not guilty actually, there’s a difference between not guilty and innocent.
@JJ’s Wattage: well with O’Brien’s there was admission of guilt so you can’t really use that argument
@Jim Demps: You’ve embarrassed yourself with that one Jim, to suggest a drunken incident where nobody actually got harmed deserved the same coverage as potential rape is pathetic and to use it as a points scoring opportunity in your ongoing provincial tit for tat is even worse. Your hatred of Leinster has clouded your view of things so badly I actually feel sorry for you.
@Jim Demps: Did you ever think that *you* might be massively biased and that might be clouding your own view?
Mad thought I know, but there just might be something in it…
@Paula Leavy: I think O’Brien physically assaulting someone is definitely worse than just talking disrespectfully about someone in a WhatsApp group, don’t see any way anybody could argue otherwise
@Paula Leavy: yeah that’s why I said not guilty, yeah they said pretty horrible things in that private WhatsApp yeah, but I don’t think that’s actually worse than pissing on another person to be honest, I’m sure Sean o’briens made his fair share of jokes in his group chats too
@Jim Demps: No there’s no comparison between urinating on someone and being a potential r@pist. And also you might want to look at the what’s app message that weren’t deleted to understand why the majority of people wouldn’t want Jackson representing Ireland again. It’s a lazy, dangerous and disgusting comparison.
@John Black: didn’t say it was only reported because he’s a pro sports player. I said it could be argued that an incident like that wouldn’t always make its way to a newspaper column. I don’t know of many rape trials that don’t get at least a few column inches. I agree totally with what you say about Jackson’s anonymity but that comes down to the jurisdiction the trial was held in. Not much can be done about that.
@JJ’s Wattage: ok he wasn’t found guilty either so therefore all three are non-incidents and therefore equal in severity, so the big deal was made of the Munster and ulster one but not the leinster one?
@Kohn Jeenan: those messages were no jokes. And yes I think their behaviour and messages were far worse than urinating on someone
@JJ’s Wattage: well I’m not trying to argue with you but you did say it would’ve barely made a paper if he wasn’t a pro sports player.
I think you underestimate how many rape trials there are, there are many that aren’t reported at all.
@Paula Leavy: you’re pretty sure he assaulted her? The only witness said it didn’t look like that’s what was happening at all so you must’ve seen something else? You probably should’ve testified so and maybe he wouldn’t have been found not guilty
@Kohn Jeenan: being on trial for rape is a non incident? That’s an interesting view on the world…. Done with this absolute nomln argument now….. Maybe someone else will bite??
@Paula Leavy: well you being pretty sure counts for nothing and makes it no more or less likely. Innocence is assumed until proven otherwise. What we do know is that O’Brien physically assaulted someone in a very disgusting and degrading way and Jackson said some disgusting and degrading things in a group chat. One is talk, which isn’t a crime, one is a physical assault, which is a crime.
@JJ’s Wattage: yeah I was saying that because he was found not guilty that if you’re gonna use that to defend Sean O’Brien then neither was found guilty and both equally severe …
@Kohn Jeenan: Yes from listening to the evidence reported on the case I believe that woman. I never said I witnessed anything so your comment is a bit idiotic and shows your immaturity. Not guilty means the prosecution didn’t present enough evidence for the people on the jury to convict beyond a reasonable doubt, doesn’t mean the rest of us can’t make our own conclusions on it. But you continue being a r@pist apologist.
@Paula Leavy: ⚠️ANGRY FEMINIST ALRET WHO DOESN’T BELIEVE IN BEING INNOCENT UNTIL PROVEN GUILTY⚠️
@Paula Leavy: I’ll continue to acknowledge the justice system and due process thank you very much, you can continue to be an apologist for people that piss on people
@Oval Digest: of course I’m biased, never claimed to be otherwise. Being a full paid up club member and season ticket holder I’d have to be, however what I’m saying here is that so are the rugby media in this country. I’ve given examples above, feel free to counter them and engage in a discussion rather than doing what you always do.
@John Black: there is no prosecution of o brien so he can’t be found guilty or not, so your argument is stupid. Yes what he did was disgusting, but it’s in no comparison to Jackson. I’d rather a lout represent Ireland than a misogynist and possible r@pist
@Paula Leavy: I’m sure we can discuss the points I made above in a wider sense without making it specifically about the Jackson trial. I do find your use of the word potential and your assertion earlier that he was prosecuted a bit misguided though given the trial verdict. Perhaps continue the conversation and exclude that particular example?
@Kohn Jeenan: where did I stick up for o brien and say it was ok for him to urinate on people?! I very clearly criticised his behaviour. I also criticised the comparison of his behaviour to Jackson’s. Maybe read my replies before posting.
@Cortis Jr.: anonymous incel posts something irrelevant *yawn*
@Jim Demps: Munster, like lots of Irish sports teams, thrive off a siege mentality. I think you’ve become excessively wrapped up in this. Of course there will be imbalances and biases at times but you seem to go out of your way looking for them and often seeing them when they aren’t there. You yourself are particularly biased when criticizing Leinster players. Toner and recently Healy are getting ‘melted’ in contact yet you have never ever used such terms for Munster lads. You post a lot of really knowledgeable stuff but it really seems like you’re on a one man mission to right this perceived wrong of Leinster bias. You’ll get plenty of likes sticking the boot into Leinster (or Munster for that matter) but it’s really primitive stuff
@Jim Demps: I agree with some points but that is very munster view. What about munster media bias. Its unreal when you have Alan Quinlan, Donal Lenahan, Keith Wood, Jerry Flannery and Peter Stringer to name just a few who are unbelievably bias towards Munster. Alan Quinlan is unreal bias towards munster that its actually impossible to even listen to him. It’s a guarantee that he will always pick a munster man for MOM in an irish game no matter what. Problem is with Irish Media is that those involved are from the successful days of the past 20 years which are munster and leinster teams so it is a red/blue imbalance that is from both sides. Leinster get ready ride from their ex players and tough on Munster and visa versa. Not one decent ex player doing media in Ireland today apart from Brent
@Jim Demps: well you used that example Jim. It’s a horrible, ignorant and horrendous comparison you made, and you’re being correctly called out on it.
@Paula Leavy: you did say that the banter in Jackson’s group chat was worse than Sean o’Briens behaviour which kind of implies that it’s next to nothing
@Paula Leavy: he admitted guilt by apologising to the person he assaulted so the argument is not stupid at all.
Yes it is no comparison, you’re correct there, one is just words and the other is a crime.
Well everyone that represents Ireland is a possible r@pist when you include people that haven’t been convicted of r@pe.
The only person who could possibly say whether it was r@pe or not was the only witness and she said it wasn’t so… but having said that, the witness could be friendly with Jackson so I’m willing to not use that as a point but the fact remains there is zero evidence to say he committed the crime.
@James F Davis: Well said
@John Black: Absolutely……and any woman who accuses a man of rape and the man is subsequently found not guilty then that woman should receive the same sentence as the man would receive should be found guilty.
@Kohn Jeenan: that what’s app chat was not banter. And as I said earlier I believe the woman who accused him. I never said o brien’ s behaviour was next to nothing, I said it was very poor. So yes I’m glad Jackson will never represent Ireland again, in my opinion he is a disgusting human being.
@Ray Ridge: I agree with this but only if it has the same strict conditions as for convicting a man, it has to be proven beyond reasonable doubt, it needs to be without doubt a false accusations with solid evidence to prove it to be false
@Jim Demps: Right so you’ve admitted your bias. So how can you not then see how this is colouring your view of the media and it’s supposed Leinster slant? I mean you’re clearly pro Munster and anti Leinster in most scenarios, so do you not think you this might be clouding your judgement here?!
@John Black: No not everyone who represents Ireland is a potential r@pist, just the ones who are prosecuted for it are. But continue defending him if you feel the need to, it says a lot about your character. You’re probably a mc gregor fan too.
@Jim Demps: CJ is too small for international Rugby
@Paula Leavy: you are of course correct any decent person would have to agree with you.
@Paula Leavy: I mean it was intended as banter though, if it makes you feel any better he represented Ireland a good few times after getting charged
@John Black: Absolutely…..just because there isn’t enough evidence to convict doesn’t mean it was a false allegation. But the balance needs to be evened out a bit. I’ve seen a lot of guys life’s ruined over a false allegations. Once the allegation is made be the man guilty or innocent his life is ruined. Women are more or less getting a free pop at it and riding off into the sunset.
@Paula Leavy: well they are potential r@pists if you want to include people that haven’t been convicted of r@pe.
I’ll continue to assume anyone innocent until proven guilty Paula because that’s how thats how the justice system works, what this says about my character is that I’m fair. I’d hate to live in a world where an angry mob full of pitch fork holding Paulas get to convict people based no evidence.
I’m not a Conor McGregor fan at all but continue to take things as fact that have no evidence to support them, that says a lot about you.
@Kohn Jeenan: I don’t think misogynistic musings are banter, intended or not. I’m pretty sure he was dropped from the Ireland squad as soon as he was charged, possibly even as soon as he was been investigated.
@John Black: No as I clearly said, I view people who are prosecuted for r@pe as potential r@pists so don’t be trying to twist my words there John. And again as I’ve said several times on this thread, I believe he is guilty based on the evidence that was presented during the trial. So again your analogy isn’t working for what I’ve clearly said. Maybe take a second to actually read my replies.
@Jim Demps: you continue with this CJ crap, the call was to move him to 6 not to be dropped. This is because many believe that to play an expensive game your no 8 had to be able to distribute the ball. And before you quote stats of how many time Cj passed the ball in any particular game, picking it off the base of a scrum and passing it to your 9 is not what I am talking about. As for toner we’ll so far this year in club rugby he’s been one of the best in the league and Europe. Klyen had a nothing world Cup and his club form has never been that good. Yes toner was poor on Sunday but on form he deserved his shot. One things for sure when leinster play knock out rugby this season if fit toner starts 100%
@Paula Leavy: ok that’s your opinion but I feel it’s probably misinformed seeing as jackson played for Ireland throughout 2017, the year after the alleged rape and disgusting text messages occurred
@Mark Dooley: rubbish stander is easy the best Irish player in this year’s 6 nations, there’s no one who’s not a troll will tell you the same.
@Paula Leavy: I think in your haste to reply you’ve assumed I’m comparing the incidents in some kind of order of severity, nothing of the sort, just comparing the responses and coverage in the media.
@Oval Digest: you don’t seem to be addressing anything in the original posts, merely making it about me as you normally do. What’s ur take on the treatment of toner pre and post tournament vs say stander? There’s an eerie silence regarding the formers performance last weekend given the amount of column inches pre game
@Paula Leavy: anyone can be prosecuted for r@pe without being a r@pist at all and the right to anonymity in the republic means the entire team could’ve been prosecuted and not convicted so it’s a terrible way to judge.
The law works as innocent until proven guilty, the only substantial piece of evidence presented at the trial was the witness’ account where they stated it didn’t look like rape. If you believe he is guilty based on that, I’m so glad our justice system is fair and not ran by people like you.
@Jim Demps: Jim, you’ve just given a list of seemingly pro Leinster, anti Munster bias in the media, then admitted that you’re completely biased yourself.
My point is that your own bias is clearly clouding your views of the media!
@Kohn Jeenan: you are correct he played in 2017. But that doesn’t change my opinion on the matter. My opinion is based on the evidence that was presented at the trial.
@Oval Digest: you’re not biased?
@John Black: eh there was plenty of other evidence presented, like the doctor who testified when they examined the victim she had a 1.5cm tear inside her vagina consistent with an assault, the taxi driver who picked her up from the house and saw she was visibly upset and saw the blood on her jeans around the crotch area, the text messages between the victim and Jackson’s mate. Lots of evidence was presented. And not guilty doesn’t mean innocent
@Paula Leavy: ok that’s your opinion, the fact of the matter is he was found not guilty and so I don’t see why a night of drinking for him isn’t comparable to a night of drinking for Sean O’Brien as per the original comment
@Jim Demps: there is no comparison Jim. One was very poor behaviour and the other was a masogonist being charged with a very serious crime. As I said a disgusting and ignorant comparison, whatever way you want to spin it.
@Jim Demps: Oh yes I’m 100% biased.
But I’m not making big claims about a pro Munster agenda in the media and ignoring that I might just be focusing on the stuff that I disagree with, am I?!
@Kohn Jeenan: I can’t keep repeating the same reasons why it’s not comparable, over and over again. Just re read my replies. It might sink in for you. Or it might not. I’m done with your hot takes on it at this stage.
@Paula Leavy: Jackson did not use disgusting language.
@Paula Leavy: im no judge but I’m pretty sure urinating on someone is illegal rather than just being poor behaviour. Listen I’ve no interest in ranking which one is worse, my original post is in relation to the media and their coverage, nothing to do with the incidents. Happy out to discuss that with you, not going to reply otherwise though
@Paula Leavy: whats a masogonist and how does it differ from poor behaviour
@Oval Digest: I think by your logic you absolutely are except you’re replacing the media in that narrative with my good self.
@Jim Demps: you are getting the reaction you were looking for, fair play you really are the king of the trolls. And you put so much thought into the narrative. More important things in live then this tripe but sure you are getting your kicks.
@Paula Leavy: the same doctor who presented that her injuries were consistent with rough sex? the same taxi driver who she told a different story to than her testimony? And the text messages are no more evidence than the accusation itself, which is not evidence.
I’m not trying to be harsh but they’re all very weak pieces of evidence at best. Lots of equally weak evidence was presented the other way also. Which is why I said the only substantial evidence was the witness and she said it wasn’t r@pe which is why her case never had legs at all.
Not guilt doesn’t mean innocent but innocent until proven guilty does.
@Jim Demps: No idea what point you’re trying to make there Jim lad. Another strawman?
What I’m saying is fairly clear – your own bias clouds how your perceive the media. You’re by definition only seeing one side, the one that suits your own narrative.
@Oval Digest: aren’t you, as a 100% biased Leinster fan, by your own definition only seeing one side and concluding the media isn’t biased?
@Jim Demps: No, you’ve made another big strawman there Jim! Three in a row!
Clearly there are biased Leinster commentators in the media. That’s obvious.
But the point is there are also plenty of biased Munster ones.
You’ve ignored them and chosen to only focus on examples that support or confirm your point.
Like do you really believe that there is some mass media conspiracy against your team and for another with no balance? That’s Trumpian level stuff.
@Oval Digest: Now we’re getting somewhere. So we both agree there’s a massive Leinster bias in the media, now let’s take this 6 nations as a reference point, show me where all the articles are in the national papers that you’d classify as munster bias. I mean they exist right? You know, like all the ones looking for stander to be dropped etc but with the anti Leinster slant that I’m apparently ignoring. Should be easy enough to stick up a few links
@Jim Demps: Why would they be hard on Leinster? They’re doing very well in Pro14 & Europe. And have been for years. They’ve got great coaches and a great academy. The ethos and rugby community seems to be doing excellent as well. All the way from clubs, schools, women’s, and senior level etc. it’s quite clear that you envy Leinster & are very Jealous of them. Would you be saying the same thing if Munster we’re doing well. Definitely not…
@Jim Demps: No Jim, I don’t agree that. Four strawmen in a row, that must be a record!
You have this weird chip on your shoulder that everyone is against Munster. And you use anything you can find to support that.
I don’t go around keeping score of media bias or who said what. That isn’t balanced, nor is it healthy.
@Kohn Jeenan: if that was your sister/daughter in that room, would you still be defending those two innocent chaps?
@Oval Digest: weak enough aul style with ya as always. Shur one or two articles would suffice. Listen there’s no point in engaging if your argument is always to direct the finger at me rather than addressing a single point I’ve made. Best job is to keep out of my replies I reckon. I’d do the same for yourself if and whenever you actually post something
@Hector Son: I wouldn’t think I’m defending them, I’ve said the texts they sent were disgusting, they were found not guilty so reslly I’m just defending my opinion that it wasn’t an unfair comparison by Jim Demps to compare it to Sean O’Brien actually urinating on another person like Paula suggested.
If it was your oul lad in that pub I doubt you’d dismiss that as a small bit of misbehaviour on his part
@Jim Demps: Any chance to have a pop at Leinster eh? You’ve made a career of it on the comments section of the journal! Half the rugby analysts in Ireland are ex-Munster players so how is that anti-Munster?
@Jim Demps: Ah you started this thread looking for a reaction Jim and as usual you just don’t like a logical, rational counter argument, then quickly resort to strawmen and snippiness.
It’s an approach that’s as consistent and time honoured as Munster fans calling out the shockin D4 meedja bias!
@Oval Digest: I haven’t seen anything logical or fact based from you, just the normal ah Jim is biased argument despite admitting you’re the same yourself.
@Jim Demps: poor ol Jim
@Jim Demps: of course the media level were different, one was a ex international urinated on a person the other was a court case were two Irish internationals were prosecuted in a gang rape and who were shown to have espoused disgusting opinions on women. There’s no comparison between the two.
@Jim Demps: utter crap Jim. You are too red. They are too blur. Oasis or Blur? It’s all crap. Murray. Been crap. Sexton. Been crap. Stander. And o Mahoney. Been crap. Best had been crap. All the old guard had no form. No matter what tribe. You are making a tribal issue out of nothing
@Paula Leavy: physical assault or type some offensive words on a phone?
I know what I’d rather be the victim of and I’m not taking the p*ss.
@Jim Demps: personally I’d move O’Mahony to 7, CJ to 6 and drop VDF for Doris! Also for perspective, I don think steroid abuse and Alleged sexual assault can compare to pissing up against a bar! Not defending his actions but definately not the same or comparable
@James F Davis: remember he consistently slates toner,Healy, sexton , furlong, porter but cries when people question standers position in the team. Yah Leinster bias
@Brian Judge: Andy Dunne! by far the best pundit in Ireland
@Paula Leavy: Paula can you just clarify the texts sent by Jackson that you’re referring to? He only sent one in that group chat that was shown as evidence and it didn’t show a disgusting opinion against women.
@Jim Demps: You do an awful lot of crying, whingeing and moaning it seems. Cheer up old bean, and try stick to the rugby.
@Jim Demps: Jesus Jim, it didn’t take long for your nonsense to return
@Jim Demps: Healy played 25 minutes and went off injured. How does he get ‘free pass’.
@John Black: unless gym-giers are charged with an offence they won’t be mentioned in the media.
Too harsh. Ireland has a small playing base and since professionalism, the teams have punched above their weight. We have had great days over the last 20 years and there will be great days ahead.
@Jack Hackett: perfectly said
Too soft imo – we don’t address the big problems , centrally contracted players on crazy money I.e Murray on €800,000 per annum and no performing or get dropped .
Always flopping at world cups for various reasons.
Not acknowledging the huge step up in physicality for test rugby (England v Ireland) opposed to Champions cup & Pro14.
Refusal to drop players who haven’t performed for club or country for a substantial period (over 12 months) – POM , Murray , Stockdale , Sexton
Obvious bias among certain journalists – if you went to a private Dublin school the newspaper’s hail you as future legend , whereas project players get scrutinized
Also we win the odd game convincingly like Wales 2 weeks ago or France in 2018 and the media act like we’re back before changing their tune after a lose
@John Carey: Murray isn’t on 800k, no Irish player is
@John Carey: Too soft is right…..we are their employer after all.
@Ray Ridge: You’re whose employer?
@John Carey: France 2018 was not convincing, far from it.
Also by the by, Twickenham had 2 jammy trys hat year, similar to this year against us! Wales too, we got the intercept at the end which glossed over a very close game. Media was all over what a great grand slam it was!
It was awesome, but just saying, if we didnt get the rub of he green that year it could’ve been a little different.
@John Carey: beating France 2 years ago wasn’t that convincing!
The likes of Neil Francis writing to get a reaction will always elicit the expected response. Hook and Brent Pope became the Stadler and Waldorf on rte commentary. Love listening to the likes of Ronan O’Gara because I feel like I know more about the nuances of the game after listening to him. Dito for the pieces Murray Kinsella does on how teams set up. Unfortunately BO’D can come across as a bit smarmy sometimes. I find Luke Fitzgerald unbearable.
Probably both. They’re neither as bad or as good as people say.
Also I notice such recency bias when talking about the team. Everything is terrible after a loss, after a win we’re going to win the grand slam!
@DeShawn Jersey: think it’s a fans thing as well, across all sports, too harsh on losses and lose the run of ourselves over a win, seems to be everyone with any interest in sports gets carried away a lot of the time
@DeShawn Jersey: Mind for the splinters on your AH, those fences can be very nasty.
Usual problem? Harder to get off the team than to get selected? Cooney is the classic example? Toner and Sexton well past their sell by date.
Listening to Drico critique Stockdale without really going into depth on players such as JVD performances and Darce bemoan the warehousing of players at particular clubs is nauseatng. The biggest single issue in the Rugby media is the parochial self reflection and navel gazing. What impact did POC visit to Ireland camp have on POM and Stander? The Irish rugby media need more voices from outside Ireland. There is simply too much investment in relationships between players and pundits for Irish rugby to really improve.
@Christiaan Theron: You want another Matt Williams?
@Christiaan Theron: Not necessarily. Former coaches from the provinces would make very interesting commentary. Considering they will know the problems and quite probably had their own answers.
@Christiaan Theron: Eddie O’Sullivan and Bernard Jackman are former coaches while Donal Lenihan was a manager and former international.
The ‘boardroom’ on Virgin Media comprises Shane Horgan Matt Williams, Ronan O’Gara. Shaggy talks too much, Williams plays to the gallery while Rog is the one who gives a thoughtful, incisive answer.
@Ken Curran: Out of that group RoG still plays to the Munster faithful and Bernard Jackman is the most technical but most reasonable. The Irish rugby media are an echo chamber.
I wish they would spend some time discussing the match officials who year on year are getting worse. These are the people who decide who wins the game. They make mistake after mistake and yet they are never mentioned in the post match analysis. Time to call them out for their inadequacies.
@Peter O’ Dowd: Great point Peter, rugby needs to be referred by a rule book and not any given ref’s hunches. As for celebrity ref’s like Nigel Owen’s, I give up. In spite of the size of the rugby market in comparison with association football, no football referee enjoys Owen’s celebrity status, crazy!
Too many experts looking for copy and airtime.
Farrell Out.
@Darren World: Schmidt out surely?
@Darren World: Agree completely. Any sports coach who would bring in “Bono” to motivate a team of highly trained athletes demonstrates serious lack of judgment !
At all levels
England has almost 2.000.000 rugby players.
Sth. Africa 700.000.
France 350.000.
Ireland 150.000.
@Matt Rogers: Still 15 vs 15. Also, we seem to have same number as NZ.
Rugby coverage is not a question about being too soft or too harsh, but too much for such an elitist minority game. Neither the “fans with typewriters” nor “the fans at keyboards” understand moderation. Why does this game of International Franchises, rather than International teams get so much coverage? Nothing about Country of Origin anymore. The Corona Virus will show how easy it is to shi*t on the small guy (italy) with this year’s fixtures, if it comes in the way of money, as Rugby World Cup showed scant regard for Scotland and indeed Japan at last Autumn’s World Cup, when their postponed games stood in the way of the Mighty Dollar.
I find the media measured and balanced , they are definitely guilty of reporting results to death. Fans are too extreme we have to be realistic.
Anna’s back……..outa quarantine.
They are all 3 of these things. Depending on the end result of the match.
It’s showbiz baby …
Too harsh from social media fans. Either because of provincial bias or some inflated standards that they created themselves. The mainstream media is quite balanced, especially the likes of ROG, Shane Horgan and Murray Kinsella and those who give cold analytical analysis. There are outliers in the media like Neil Francis who is just out for shock value, Ewan McKenna who has a nasty hatred for rugby (or anyone who is successful) and Gerry Thornley who is probably a bit too positive at times but does paint some nice pictures in his articles
Its both really as the media is made up of many different types. Murray is on one end of the spectrum, keeping a calm head and going into great detail on the good and the bad. Others are are downright insulting to people putting their bodies on the line for our entertainment as if they are infallible. However, there is an element of potentially unavoidable arrogance when it comes to all corners of the media because in many respects that are forced to play the role of captain hindsight meaning disjointed performances lead to varying media reactions. Also, there can be something frustrating about lads sitting in a warm, cosy studio/office and making out that they clearly have all the answers and are the ultimate experts in how it should be done with little to nothing to back that stance up.
Media are generally, too harsh.. Id like to see them to the field. And they are generally people who have no real knowledge of the game, or people who have gripes with individual players. They are not capable of being neutral or positive. Irish rugby for the size of our country and pool of players punches well above its weight.
I think the Irish media is fairly balanced, especially with Hook gone.
However, individual commentators on social media sites, hiding behind anonymity? I’m not so sure.
Too many articles!!
Media coverage of Ireland the past number of years is to me no different to listening and watching the English media coverage of their national soccer team. Its embarrassing if truth be told. Id rather watch an Irish Rugby game on BBC and thats saying something. We’ve put players on pedestals that dont deserve it.
Who wants to know, Goldilocks?
1000% this way or 1000% that way. The middle ground hath disappeared, because well, the extreme sell things way better, listen to Newstalk for 30 seconds and it’s blatantly obvious, It’s entertaining for sure but it’s also a complete wind up, and that’s why they got radio station of the year, Success = peddling crap, loudly. It’s the times we live in. Personally don’t mind it as I find it entertaining and don’t accept anything thing in the media as’ true’… I gets my vaccines tho, jaysus i wouldn’t question that!!
In terms of rugby. Outside of Limerick you’re all novices, knowing this is what subconsciously fuels the resentment and anger.
Too many articles
Too expectant.
All masses are cancelled on sunday……Coronvirus.
@Ray Ridge: You must think that comment funny, smartarse !
Alan Shearer